Ohm deletes MIDI after recording it

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Ohm deletes MIDI after recording it
  • aya,

    i tried to record midi, but it would delete the midi object in the project directly after recording it.
    i can record a few seconds of midi, they do stay, but when i record several minutes, the recorded obj, wich does show recorded midi events, flashes pink and vanishes.

    yes, the setup is all working: i can successfully record and monitor through my Delta 1010 MIDI i/o like 5 seconds, but not much longer. few second takes work fine, midi events are recorded and editable and do playback as expected. but longer takes, they just wont stay in the project.

    to exclude known problems, (even if not all of that list appears really sensemaking)  we tried the following workarounds/fixes:
    - change ASIO buffers (128, 256, 512)
    - change midi channel
    - change track/make new track with new VSTi instance
    - record audio (successfully, any length)
    - change the VSTi (eg kontakt vs BFD2)
    - change the project (new testproject)
    - reset Ohm and restart
    - system restart
    - power off on audio/MIDI card
    and maybe more wich i already forgot lol.

    the deletion of longer sequences after successfully recording them into the station (object shows recorded midi events - for a second before the obj/seq vanishes)
    is persistant, no matter what we did.

    again, the setup DOES work fine, i can record short passages of midi, but long ones (few minutes) will flash pink (same as the rack flashes pink a few times) and the recorded object disappears about 2 secs after hitting the stop button.

    ive heard from others that they had this problem too but randomly, and it usually disappeared with a relog.
    in my case its pretty resistant lol.
    id be happy to know if there'd be a fix for this problem.

    thanks and regards,
    aira

    edit
    been waiting for "another day", twice even, and check if time does its computer magic lol, but it still wont do...
    could record a longer midi take in one project, but only once. other attemts afterwards failed...
  • Very interesting - we now have an opportunity to reproduce. I pointed this to our devs. 
  • Hello,

    I assume I have the same problem.

    I have 2 midi devices but only one has the problem: the Alesis DM6 (e-drums) with latest firmware

    What happens is this: video capture

    The midi pattern shows-up for a fraction of second then disappears, the corresponding rack then blinks like sarcastically laughing at you ;)
    Very frustrating because the pattern shown seems to be ok.

    The log file log-net-mp-host.txt indicates:

    376 4504 2864.252 main ERROR Logical Error 
    NoteKbd: duration out of bound (0)
    Logical Error 
    NoteKbd: duration out of bound (0)

    .\ValidationReportReader.cpp, Nov 28 2013 78
    377 4504 2864.252 main ERROR Execution Error Err_VM_BAD_ACCESS
    set_object_ref: 00090000000006AA
    .\ValidationReportReader.cpp, Nov 28 2013 78

    These errors are logged every time the problem occurs.

    I love your product and hope you will find a solution very soon. If not already ;)

    Regards,

    Richard
  • Does your e-drum pad send a Note Off at all and, if so, how long after the Note On?  If you can adjust it, set it to a minimum value (triggered sounds should be ignoring the Note Off but the sequencer likes to have them so it knows how to draw the note).
  • I have had the same problems - it is recent - no hardware changes on my end, plenty of bandwidth.  Seems to happen with Kontakt more than anything, but I have had it happen with other vst's.

    I will add also that after this happens, if you do a ctrl-z (undo record) and then a ctrl-y - redo record - you can see the midi file in its entirety flash for a second in pink and then go away - easily repeatable.  So the midi file is actually there and captured, but the object is not being allowed to save  (as thought there is a conflict in the save operation and Flip auto backs it out ?)
  • I am certain this is impacting many users
  • In Ableton Live, recording with my midi device (Alesis DM6) works well.

    But I noticed something strange in the midi score generated.
    Most of the notes are very short, which is normal for a drum machine.
    But from time to time one note is very long (actually it only stops when the next begins).
    It is as if the DM6 occasionally forgets to send the "Note Off" event.
    For a drum pad, it does not impact the sound, only the visual rendering of the midi scores looks a bit strange.
    I wonder if this may be what confuses OhmStudio...

    It seems to confirm pljones suspicion.

    @irockus: I observe the exact same behavior as you. How does your midi score looks like in another DAW? Do you have missing "Note Off" events?
  • Well, I do not have the problem all the time so that leads me to believe it is not related to note on/note off events.
    I have successfully used all of my vst's at one time or another with no issues.  I do not have missing note off events in reaper.  

    I will try to compare the two and see what happens, but again, I think it is server side issue/bug - the pink flashing I have seen before when the FLIP data model detects a collision (eg - two people trying to move the same object at the same time while editing a project).
  • oh well - no responses from ohm force folks here  ...
  • I am going to open a support ticket at support@ohmstudio.com and reference this forum  - you may wish to do the same -  - hopefully we will get a response and possibly a resolution.  


  • Thx a lot for the documentation, Rich. It points out indeed to faulty MIDI from DM-6 ; it may be that it would be a good policy for Ohm Studio to have a tolerance to errors if midi hardware is prone to generate some on a regular basis. 

    Irockus, what's your midi device ? What's your audio interface ?

    Also Aira's problem may be a different one.
  • FYI - can't post in the forum using Internet Explorer - getting error message body required ...

    Using chrome - no issue

    Good News !  (I think)

    Responding to the midi issue I was having – I have recently
    upgraded to a new PC and cannot reproduce the issue with lost or unrecorded
    midi.



    Using same audio interfaces (including FW card from old PC) and audio input devices .  



     Old PC was an AMD 1.8 Quad with
    8 GB Ram and was using SSD drives but motherboard was 3GB sata.  
    I did a fresh build of this machine to see if the problems were related to
    other software, etc 
    just windows 7 ultimate, Norton 360 anti-virus/fw, and ohmstudio.– and still had the issues with midi recording and overall pausing in ohm.



    New PC is a Core i7 4790 Haswell 4.0 and 32 GB Ram using SSD
    drives motherboard is 6GB sata - Using same audio interfaces, midi input devices, router and
    network.



     



    I do not seem to be having delays in ohm when inside a
    project ...

    I cannot reproduce lost or shortened length midi recording
    issues...
    Even certain problems I was having outside of ohm (B4 organ
    stuck notes) seems to have disappeared....

    After the above success with the new PC, I fired up the old PC and again and was able to duplicate the issues.

    I believe I was CPU under powered and maybe was having
    timeouts as a result.
    In any case- so far so good
    !!!!






  • We noticed this problem today when recording a Roland V-Drums HD-1.  We were using an Edirol UA-101 (hopefully irrelevant) to record the HD-1 into Ohm Studio, and using Kontact with Studio Drummer to render the audio.  On the first test take (10-20 seconds) everything was fine, but after recording a couple of minutes, the MIDI data appeared then very quickly disappeared.  Pressing Undo and Redo showed the MIDI data appearing and then disappearing again!

    We attempted to record the whole track again, but it failed in in the same way.

    We ended up recreating the Kontact instrument, this time using the 16-out VST (which I think should not make a difference) and not applying the Studio Drummer instrument.  The MIDI data stayed this time, and we were able to add the Studio Drummer instrument after the fact, then bounce it down.

    Here's a similar report from 2012:

    http://forum.ohmstudio.com/discussion/401/midi-track-disappearing-after-recording./p1

  • Hi Polar,

    What you describe is a case of networking issue. The take is made, but it never reaches the server which then state that as it's not heard of out it simply shall not exist. Server is the boss and impose its reality to your client Ohm Studio. 

    Possible reason: some NI plugins tends to go into a parameter change frenzy even when you don't touch them. On another DAW you wouldn't even know but in Ohm's case it means it will take bandwith while it's doing that (you can see the refressh button on the top of the UI constantly spinning). If so it may block your midi input to reach the server long enough to timeout (30 sec). If so just check before you do your tech than Kontakt is not doing its thing. Make also sure everyone use the same, preferable latest version of Kontakt (lots of possible issues if not). 

    Alternatively, wifi or ISP issue can cause this as well. 

    But you're right, it's not related to what is the number of output.
  • Hi Red,

    Thanks for trying to help us understand the issue, and giving us some pointers on what to look for and how to work around it.  But that needs to be fixed.  The data can be kept around in the client and the sync retried.  Some clear feedback to the user while this is going on (or at least that the sync failed) would not go amiss.

    I work on the recording side of security IP video, and if our clients/servers behaved that way then I'd be out of a job.  The client and server need to do everything they can to ensure they don't lose data.  Now you might argue that recording a musician's work is less important than ensuring that you've caught the footage of a fatal shooting (been there) but it's still bad.

    I understand that you have to work with all manner of plugins, but losing data is a Bad Thing, and is the most serious impediment in my mind to me spending money on Ohm Studio and hosting.

    Is the server's behaviour configurable?  Can the client be improved to retry?

    Thanks again.

  • Hi Red,

    I'm just thinking about this again and wanting to clarify something.  So the behaviour we were seeing was that we recorded a couple of minutes of MIDI data, and when we pressed the stop button the data was rendered and then immediately disappeared.  At what point does the transfer of the data to the server begin?

    Thanks.
  • "Thanks for trying to help us understand the issue, and giving us some pointers on what to look for and how to work around it. But that needs to be fixed. The data can be kept around in the client and the sync retried. Some clear feedback to the user while this is going on (or at least that the sync failed) would not go amiss." 

    Unfortunately it can't be fixed, at least not by us. VST standard wasn't designed for multiple users collaboration. It's up to the plugin maker to decide when it tells the host that the plugin state has to be updated in the document. Sometimes it's "often". Moreover depending of the plugin this "state" can amount to a pretty significant amount of data. 

    I understand you suggest that you can hold the data but that would not solve a thing. Mainly because if you forget to sync the next time you load your project you'd loose your plugins setting. Actually that's what happens with some plugins which can't auto sync (same reason as above) - the manual sync button is for those one. Proof in case: we have fare more complaint about users loosing content because it didn't auto sync than for the use case you're reporting here. It's a typical design flow with any form of locks. Any lock need management and management gets in the way of many things. Put a lock there and even if it's not there by default you'll end up with way more troubles thant what you would solve. 

    And about that it's worth noting that the issue you described :

    - happens very rarely to the point what I stated is just an idea of what could cause this. It did happen to me once with a Guitar Rig plugin. Kontakt is by far the most used instrument in our userbase. Overall it works welll
    - when it happens in my experience, it's not long.  

    - if the above diagnostic is right this would be in Native's hand anyway. 

    - moreover we're not even sur it's not your ISP or an Antivirus etc. 

     Now I am not saying absolutely nothing can be done but effort in dev is about setting up priority. To be clear this doesn't score high for now. That being said: if you can rule out connexion issue on your side, overzealous antivirus and discrepancy of plugin version and can reproduce this issue this could be useful and help us understand what's causing this. Maybe a simple fix would appear, either by code or within Kontakt preferences, who knows ? 

     "At what point does the transfer of the data to the server begin?" 

    As soon as the clip is created.





  • I'm sorry, Red, but I don't agree with you:
    - The data is there in the client and can be seen (albeit briefly) when you undo and redo (multiple times)
    - Kontakt is used in many other DAWs without data loss
    - The problem is with the mechanism by which you sync the data between the client and the server, which is your domain

    The data is in the client.  For whatever reason the client and server are interacting such that the data gets hidden and then lost. Blaming ISPs or anti-virus doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.  I may not know the innards of your software, but I do develop application and platform software for distributed real-time video recording systems.  These systems need, among many other things, to guarantee recording 350 video and audio streams totaling 1Gbps per server, 24x7x365, without frame loss, both from our own devices and from third party devices, and with the ever-present possibility of hardware failure.  And that's just the recording, not the playback and not any of the myriad other distributed tasks that our system copes with.

    I'm well aware of priority, but until it's fixed Ohm Studio isn't a product that I could advise people to spend money on.